WEBVTT 00:00.000 --> 00:05.840 sometimes the trucks that come in can be really loud yes I mean I'm pretty fine 00:05.840 --> 00:10.880 with that um so yeah in terms of um I always tell people you know if it was 00:10.880 --> 00:14.360 murder in a small town you'd have to get an interview with the bride's parents 00:14.360 --> 00:17.760 you know it was murdered and you do anything to do that because you had no 00:17.760 --> 00:21.920 choice right but this is a story where if I don't get a person saying there's 00:21.920 --> 00:27.000 no like I have to get her on film saying this or anything like that um oh fine 00:27.000 --> 00:36.720 here oh and also wherever you can speak up I'll do my best but unless it's okay 00:36.720 --> 00:40.920 the way I'm talking right now this is it that's great I have a tendency to talk 00:40.920 --> 00:45.900 very softly some people can't hear me because of that right but I just am what 00:45.900 --> 00:50.480 I am if I try to speak more loudly I just sound ridiculous I sound like I'm 00:50.480 --> 00:53.800 trying to be all booming this is me okay people people hear me and I 00:53.800 --> 01:02.000 constantly sound like I'm just about to promo some soap anyway so yeah I mean 01:02.000 --> 01:10.080 are we rolling oh yeah what strikes me is okay you know what strikes me often 01:10.080 --> 01:14.920 when I talk to people who did things artistically on VBS right is that what 01:14.920 --> 01:19.440 you'll often get a case is they're they're generally talented right it's 01:19.440 --> 01:23.160 not just a case of they can only express themselves this way they can kind of 01:23.160 --> 01:28.200 move around in that way right and the question becomes or from the outside is 01:28.200 --> 01:37.320 you know what about ANSI drawing said to you let's do things this way versus any 01:37.320 --> 01:44.880 other way well because I I was into some sort of artistic expression like right 01:44.880 --> 01:50.720 out of high school always I'd always done painting and drawing and and as soon 01:50.720 --> 01:57.920 as the whole ability to do things on a computer came to light I wanted to be 01:57.920 --> 02:02.040 able to take these two things that I thought were terrific and put them 02:02.040 --> 02:09.760 together well to do art but the ability to do that was amazingly limited then it 02:09.760 --> 02:14.640 was nothing like it is today so it was kind of like you had these primitive 02:14.640 --> 02:19.520 tools and you started and this was in I actually started looking at this in 87 02:19.520 --> 02:28.120 got into it really in 88 and it was a way to create something that I felt was 02:28.120 --> 02:34.600 was pretty and artistic and and I could share it through BBS's because I'd 02:34.600 --> 02:39.640 already I first started as a as a user and then went to actually be a sysop and 02:39.640 --> 02:43.440 and run a couple of boards but it wasn't good enough that they just looked like 02:43.440 --> 02:48.720 every other board I had to be able to enhance them and the only way I could do 02:48.720 --> 02:53.080 that was to create some sort of art that was able to be transferred across the 02:53.080 --> 02:58.640 modem and that really meant working with ANSI and the first thing I found was a 02:58.640 --> 03:02.200 very small primitive little program called ANSI paint the very first 03:02.200 --> 03:07.200 version of it and I started playing with it and I thought I'm never going to be 03:07.200 --> 03:10.240 able to do this it's these little boxes and things I'm never going to be able 03:10.240 --> 03:16.800 to do this and before I knew it I started figuring out ways to to create 03:16.800 --> 03:20.400 what if you stood back a little bit looked like pictures you had to kind of 03:20.400 --> 03:24.560 stand back a little bit and that's really always been the case with ANSI 03:24.560 --> 03:28.480 the further back you stood the better it looked but it was what we had to work 03:28.480 --> 03:33.400 with and it I loved it I just loved it 03:34.400 --> 03:43.400 Now, was doing it under a pseudonym just something that arose because you were using the pseudonym or did you want to use it specifically for this art? 03:43.400 --> 03:52.120 No, the pseudonym came before the art when I had when I first started into 03:52.120 --> 03:58.640 computers I started with a VIC-20 went to a Commodore 64 and it was about at 03:58.640 --> 04:07.320 that time that I got my first CompuServe account I remember a 300 baud modems 04:07.320 --> 04:12.680 watching things actually paint onto the screen a little bit at a time and they 04:12.680 --> 04:17.720 were user groups on CompuServe and everybody pretty much had handles and I 04:17.720 --> 04:22.760 didn't I didn't get this whole handle thing but I was trying to learn and I 04:22.760 --> 04:28.040 had a friend at the time later a boyfriend who called me ebony eyes 04:28.040 --> 04:32.480 because I had dark eyes and when I had to come up with something to use 04:32.480 --> 04:37.760 immediately that was what came to mind so I became ebony eyes online in that 04:37.760 --> 04:42.400 way and then when I did the when I did my first bulletin board it was ebony eyes 04:42.400 --> 04:55.680 escape and I brought the name with me when I started doing ANSI now you 04:55.680 --> 05:01.960 this is jumping ahead a little bit actually though but at one point you were 05:01.960 --> 05:07.040 able to do this for money you were able to create these for money not really a 05:07.040 --> 05:12.380 little bit of money if you can call that money what it really was was that the 05:12.380 --> 05:21.520 there were two ways one was that someone who later became my husband he was just 05:21.520 --> 05:25.800 a friend at the time he was writing shareware packages and he knew a lot of 05:25.800 --> 05:30.680 people to get these distributed and at the time they said you know your art's 05:30.680 --> 05:35.760 great let's put these together in packages see if they sell and they would 05:35.760 --> 05:41.560 put them together on on floppy disks at the time and and I think they were even 05:41.560 --> 05:47.280 actually in some computer stores like a head software and things like that but 05:47.280 --> 05:50.960 they sold for a very very small little amount of money I got very very little 05:50.960 --> 05:56.040 but it was it was just fun doing it and other than that there were people who 05:56.040 --> 06:01.560 wanted their boards enhanced they wanted an entry point or whatever that when you 06:01.560 --> 06:04.640 would first log on you would get a lovely little ANSI screen that would 06:04.640 --> 06:08.040 paint out and they didn't have the ability to do it so I was occasionally 06:08.040 --> 06:13.440 paid to do it but that puts you leads you to head of most ANSI artists 06:13.440 --> 06:18.680 because most couldn't hope to get a buck for some of the screens they were 06:18.680 --> 06:22.280 working on yeah that's probably true 06:26.280 --> 06:30.840 was there a time there might be no time you might not even acknowledge it now of 06:30.840 --> 06:38.520 any time that you found out that you were becoming this known figure uh wow 06:38.520 --> 06:43.320 I'm not sure how to answer that yeah there was a time when it became obvious 06:43.320 --> 06:49.240 because probably midway through 06:49.240 --> 06:53.760 and I ran Ebony Eyes escape and then third stage and then finally perfect 06:53.760 --> 06:59.320 vision graphics but midway through Ebony Eyes escape just before I kind of drew 06:59.320 --> 07:05.440 that to an end I would get people logging on that were logging on like as 07:05.440 --> 07:13.920 fans and that really threw me because I was just this I don't know it's just 07:13.920 --> 07:17.600 this girl living in st. Louis she wasn't supposed to be anything in particular I 07:17.600 --> 07:23.320 didn't get it I didn't get it but I began to see that more and more and more 07:23.320 --> 07:29.160 and yeah people would write to me or call me by that name and I would start 07:29.160 --> 07:34.800 seeing things written about me and it was odd to me but yeah 07:34.960 --> 07:41.520 was there anything was there any door that opened or any unusual reaching to 07:41.520 --> 07:48.040 you as that came as a result of being Ebony Eyes um yeah that's why I was asked 07:48.040 --> 07:56.000 to be a major part of the network for WWIV I was running my my first two 07:56.000 --> 08:06.760 bulletin boards were run on WWIV and when everybody split up into nodes of 08:06.760 --> 08:13.680 the network and we were the 3450 node for 314 area code it was originally 08:13.680 --> 08:23.840 given to my husband at the time who had just married married him in 89 and he 08:23.840 --> 08:29.560 was ill-equipped to do it but so everybody kind of just turned to me 08:29.560 --> 08:33.440 because I was always there at the meetings and before you knew it it was 08:33.440 --> 08:37.640 well Laura's just gonna do this so we'll just have Laura do it or EE do it 08:37.640 --> 08:42.840 because a lot of people would just call me EE for Ebony Eyes and so that it kind 08:42.840 --> 08:47.280 of blossomed from that and it was a natural thing for me because I'm kind of 08:47.280 --> 08:52.920 a natural organizer I tend to galvanize movements and people and so that's what 08:52.920 --> 09:00.200 we did and we originally got WWIV net really going we were you know one of the 09:00.200 --> 09:08.280 forces that did that just one but then I think about a year later WWIV link and 09:08.280 --> 09:15.280 it was when net had just gotten so big and so unwieldy and and there were 09:15.280 --> 09:18.400 problems lots of people were disagreeing about the way it should be run and the 09:18.400 --> 09:24.480 really the only way to solve the problem was to split it off Catholics and 09:24.480 --> 09:29.920 Lutherans kind of like that and it worked pretty well it worked pretty well 09:29.920 --> 09:36.960 the just to go off on that for a moment you know when a lot of people look back or who know 09:36.960 --> 09:41.440 BBS is and look back for them it's basically phytonet and if they're lucky a 09:41.440 --> 09:48.160 couple echoes or some phytonet like networks Wayne has a complete different 09:48.160 --> 09:52.560 take on it he claims he maybe spent an hour on phytonet he doesn't think of it 09:52.560 --> 10:00.920 as an entity in life anywhere he kind of thinks of you know in his big regret 10:00.920 --> 10:06.520 was like World War four was that he assigned the wrong kind of like an 10:06.520 --> 10:13.200 unsigned 32 int in it that crushed itself soon afterwards and it had something to 10:13.200 --> 10:18.680 do with the way the link worked right he paints it as one of being like many 10:18.680 --> 10:23.880 networks one that's played by conflict and that which it was eventually 10:23.880 --> 10:30.440 withdraws and I mean on my side I don't see any evidence that there can be one 10:30.440 --> 10:35.920 that doesn't yeah I think that whenever you're trying to network any group of 10:35.920 --> 10:42.520 people and you use the word network in the broadest sense people are diverse 10:42.520 --> 10:47.560 they bring their own agenda to the table and they bring their own wishes and 10:47.560 --> 10:53.160 thoughts and though and control issues and the bigger it gets the more you're 10:53.160 --> 10:57.280 gonna run into that sort of thing it was gonna happen and I think I think it's 10:57.280 --> 11:04.680 going to always happen in any any organization like that as far as how 11:04.680 --> 11:11.400 people perceive the networked movement of bulletin boards I think that that's 11:11.400 --> 11:16.800 also that's also one of those things where people view it through a bit of a 11:16.800 --> 11:20.400 fisheye through whatever you know what however they were involved is how 11:20.400 --> 11:25.760 they're going to see it so whatever part of the network that they were into 11:25.760 --> 11:31.040 whatever software they were running that was the thing that happened at the time 11:31.040 --> 11:35.720 so and that's the way I see it I see it through World War four I see it through 11:35.720 --> 11:41.380 Wildcat it's what I did it isn't that I didn't brush up against Fido Nat and I 11:41.380 --> 11:46.520 wasn't occasionally a part of it but it wasn't a big part so to me I view it 11:46.520 --> 11:48.920 that way 11:49.160 --> 11:54.880 going back to the NCR for a bit you know working in that medium you know some 11:54.880 --> 11:59.560 would find it pretty constricting you have 16 colors I believe you have 11:59.560 --> 12:04.200 depending on how frisky you get you have anywhere between you know besides the 12:04.200 --> 12:09.240 ASCII the actual letters and numbers only a relatively limited number of 12:09.240 --> 12:14.600 graphics right and certain things mostly just squares and boxes and then just a 12:14.600 --> 12:21.080 few special upper ASCII characters so it took it took a bit of creativity it took 12:21.080 --> 12:35.760 a leap yeah no no because I I left it for another medium just when it became 12:35.760 --> 12:40.320 available I stayed with ANSI as long as I enjoyed it as long as I felt that I 12:40.320 --> 12:46.880 could put something out that was interesting and different and I enjoyed 12:46.880 --> 12:51.680 doing it but that's the way I do things when you know it was time to move on it 12:51.680 --> 12:56.520 was time to move on so as soon as there were there was the ability to have 12:56.520 --> 13:04.040 actual photos online that were 320 by 200 256 colors that was it that was it 13:04.040 --> 13:14.720 and then we just went elsewhere so okay besides as you said you got away from 13:14.720 --> 13:26.240 ANSI? 91 maybe early 92 but I got into it in 87 I was probably very into it in 88 13:26.240 --> 13:33.920 89 and 90 those three years were really really strong 91 I began doing much 13:33.920 --> 13:40.240 more complex art and what I did in 91 and a little bit of 92 I believe was 13:40.240 --> 13:44.400 much more complex it's just hard to find out there now but it was two or three 13:44.400 --> 13:48.360 times the size of what's you know readily available and everybody can see 13:48.360 --> 13:52.080 now which was much more of the primitive stuff and that was when I had first 13:52.080 --> 13:57.480 started with ANSI paint and you couldn't even have you know the double lines or 13:57.480 --> 14:02.080 anything it was a it was pretty it was primitive there's no other word for it 14:02.080 --> 14:10.320 but it was still fun and it was art and it was we were breaking ground so 14:10.320 --> 14:18.960 between 90 and 96 97 you have what's commonly known now with the ANSI art 14:18.960 --> 14:27.160 scene where and groups of extremely energetic trash-talking young men yes 14:27.160 --> 14:32.440 give themselves handles and funny acronyms with a lowercase I lots of 14:32.440 --> 14:38.520 skulls and crossbones and poison things and yeah and they and they proceed to 14:38.520 --> 14:46.320 enter into this almost monthly battle of who can take the most pieces of art 14:46.320 --> 14:52.200 secure the best artists underneath your umbrella yes and release them yes acid 14:52.200 --> 15:00.080 and ice I believe yes and alive and mysterious and fire and literally we've 15:00.080 --> 15:07.840 collected dozens and dozens and dozens and gigabytes but was that anything you 15:07.840 --> 15:15.520 were aware of yes I was and I I had just become aware of it I was just really I 15:15.520 --> 15:23.320 was so blown away by what they were able to do and how brave these guys were that 15:23.320 --> 15:29.960 they would just be out there and they were just doing their thing and it was 15:29.960 --> 15:34.720 it was so impressive I think that's the point at which I go they don't need me 15:34.720 --> 15:44.200 anymore really I mean at that point I I was spent I think that was that but I 15:44.200 --> 15:48.520 loved it I loved looking at it and collecting it and I did for a while 15:48.520 --> 15:55.000 because it was just it was like it was like kind of if you're the mother and you 15:55.000 --> 16:00.160 and you give birth to this movement kind of thing it and that wasn't really the 16:00.160 --> 16:05.040 case but it felt that way to me because I had started so early because I was 16:05.040 --> 16:08.440 female and there were so few people doing anything like that that were and 16:08.440 --> 16:15.320 and and and these were kids they were so much younger than me so it's cool it was 16:15.320 --> 16:20.760 really cool I love seeing it happen yeah I was aware of it okay so I mean that 16:20.760 --> 16:27.160 you you you obviate some of my question which was um whatever template they 16:27.160 --> 16:34.000 build off of it's not you right it is not it's like right it's like Amish 16:34.000 --> 16:37.880 doing maple syrup and then skateboard punks doing maple syrup there's just no 16:37.880 --> 16:43.080 correct that's a really good analogy to there's just no that's what I mean 16:43.080 --> 16:46.560 there's no like you know skateboarding you can say well they were all kind of 16:46.560 --> 16:50.840 loose Californians they went from this and these kind of yes there was no there 16:50.840 --> 16:55.440 was no smooth transition yeah yeah it was just the breaking of glass it really 16:55.440 --> 17:05.400 was and that's why I said it just blew me away yeah the you just so I have the 17:05.400 --> 17:09.320 number you don't need people compress years but do you remember when you kind 17:09.320 --> 17:20.360 of stop paying attention to that scene uh let me think here probably about 94 95 17:20.360 --> 17:26.040 by 96 I was actually doing things on the internet on my own I was actually doing 17:26.040 --> 17:31.640 some graphic design at that point and I was actually starting to have clients so 17:31.640 --> 17:37.000 I had moved to be to start working on in real graphic development at that time 17:37.000 --> 17:41.880 and at that point I think that's really where I moved from point A to point B it 17:41.880 --> 17:47.480 was a big transition yeah were there any events 17:49.480 --> 17:53.680 events or situations in the anti-art scene that caught your attention at the 17:53.680 --> 17:57.560 time that you can recall like anything where some group did something or some 17:57.560 --> 18:01.960 group announced this or that and you said that's interesting not not necessarily 18:01.960 --> 18:08.280 in context you mostly what I'm asking is just things where I mean for a lot of 18:08.280 --> 18:12.640 them right these kids are I mean that's the nature of things right you work on 18:12.640 --> 18:18.440 something for five years and then some little piece of spunk comes along and 18:18.440 --> 18:24.960 like 30 days has already gone past you and you're like ah but was there stuff 18:24.960 --> 18:29.480 that they were doing or events or things that you know you're coming into it with 18:29.480 --> 18:33.160 a level of experience that none of them have period they just don't they don't 18:33.160 --> 18:39.600 even when you started ANSI they didn't have a computer they right but not even 18:39.600 --> 18:45.160 been talking because they were young Jed for instance Jed of acid did Bart 18:45.160 --> 18:51.760 Simpson versus the feds was like 13 he's 13 he's 12 when he does it in 92 yeah so 18:51.760 --> 18:58.720 he you know he's way too young to know that but I mean was there was there 18:58.720 --> 19:05.800 stuff you saw you recall I guess I'm just fishing around pretty kind of a 19:05.800 --> 19:10.880 feeling that you might recall having at that time yeah I I don't think I'm 19:10.880 --> 19:14.360 probably gonna have a good answer for you there because I don't think so I 19:14.360 --> 19:20.720 think it wasn't one of those cases where you feel like you've pioneered something 19:20.720 --> 19:24.400 and then and then people came in and scooped it right out from under you I 19:24.400 --> 19:28.160 never felt that way I never felt that way at all I have felt that way in life 19:28.160 --> 19:33.360 about things but not about this it was it was just so different it felt really 19:33.360 --> 19:37.000 apples and oranges and at the time that they came in not only were they really I 19:37.000 --> 19:41.760 mean they had this persona where they were these you know tough guys and and 19:41.760 --> 19:45.880 you wouldn't want to mess with them but if you knew anything at all about them 19:45.880 --> 19:50.000 or if you had any interaction with them at all they weren't that way at all they 19:50.000 --> 19:53.440 were actually just very warm and welcoming and they were never anything 19:53.440 --> 19:59.880 but really really nice to me and very respectful of me and so now there 19:59.880 --> 20:05.040 wasn't anything like that yeah I mean it would make a great story for me to say 20:05.040 --> 20:08.180 that there was some big thing that happened and and and it was very 20:08.180 --> 20:12.880 dramatic but it didn't and there wasn't I was I was just pleased to see it 20:12.880 --> 20:17.720 happen and it was kind of like being happy that there was a transition and 20:17.720 --> 20:23.440 that it wasn't the death of ANSI and if there was something so much talent and 20:23.440 --> 20:33.480 they they still amaze me but only really recently I hadn't been aware of it 20:33.480 --> 20:38.000 really just talking to Christian is the only reason that I'm aware of it at all 20:38.000 --> 20:41.800 I I've been away from it for so long that I would not have been and I was 20:41.800 --> 20:48.960 surprised to find out that there was so I mean do you think I mean the ANSI what 20:48.960 --> 20:53.960 what we call the ANSI standard that particular 1979 standard was actually 20:53.960 --> 20:59.240 decommissioned in 1993 it's no longer a functioning I didn't actually know that 20:59.240 --> 21:05.400 but it's not surprising oh it's a it's a standard for a situation it doesn't 21:05.400 --> 21:12.480 exist right nobody makes new new text terminals that he controls so right they 21:12.480 --> 21:15.960 don't have it right you know they continue to work in it and in fact can 21:15.960 --> 21:25.040 get very there's a real in some cases a sense of duty and in some cases a sense 21:25.040 --> 21:32.520 of you know that it's the only true way to really get your ideas out because 21:32.520 --> 21:38.120 you're you are artificially limited if you're given you know 4,000 by 4,000 32 21:38.120 --> 21:45.000 bit that's it for me where's you and they're still yeah it's not it's not a 21:45.000 --> 21:48.480 cake unless you've ground the flower yourself it's just not the same thing 21:48.480 --> 21:53.400 no I get it and it is it is different it is different and it does feel more real 21:53.400 --> 21:58.920 and it I can understand that purist attitude I can see that was there a case 21:58.920 --> 22:02.560 that you ever had we logged on to a bbs and there was your own stuff looking back 22:02.560 --> 22:08.400 at you oh yeah more times than I can tell you yeah sometimes it would be my 22:08.400 --> 22:11.960 own stuff looking back at me with someone else's name on it that's not 22:11.960 --> 22:17.840 uncommon and and in reality that still happens to this day with graphics that I 22:17.840 --> 22:23.120 designed to this day photography we take it's that's a that's just a pitfall 22:23.120 --> 22:26.000 it's just something that's always going to happen because it's just the way 22:26.000 --> 22:36.240 humans are I probably would have remembered at the time I probably would 22:36.240 --> 22:39.680 have remembered had you asked me maybe ten years ago I think it's too long now 22:39.680 --> 22:43.040 so I can't tell you I don't know 22:43.040 --> 22:49.960 somebody took his bbs code started selling it and he complained and the guys sued him really 22:49.960 --> 22:56.200 stole the code and at the court case on the screen they brought up the copy and 22:56.200 --> 22:59.920 the other guy the original guy pressed control and three characters and his 22:59.920 --> 23:03.680 name came up and that's the end of the court case but the guy had that you know 23:03.680 --> 23:08.200 this is a guy who stole a thing from him he's suing him so sometimes you get you 23:08.200 --> 23:11.560 run into these that's why I asked but sometimes you run into these things where 23:11.560 --> 23:16.120 people will put up something and then not only put it up but go and you can 23:16.120 --> 23:24.960 use my talents for yeah no we're still running into that right now I think 23:24.960 --> 23:28.480 that that's just the way it works in this industry in anything that's 23:28.480 --> 23:33.240 computers anything where what you're putting out there is digital what you're 23:33.240 --> 23:38.880 putting out there is air it's just too easy to to allow that to happen so it's 23:38.880 --> 23:44.000 going to happen there's going to be lawsuits and you know we know that now 23:44.000 --> 23:48.800 so we're still dealing with that sort of thing all these years later 23:48.800 --> 23:56.240 perception on people like myself and others which is vaguely inaccurate is we 23:56.240 --> 24:00.480 keep thinking of thinking of you as the the bright white line that comes through 24:00.480 --> 24:06.440 the 80s that precedes the burst of color for the 90s okay do you remember any 24:06.440 --> 24:09.800 contemporaries or people you were interacting with that were bringing you 24:09.800 --> 24:17.360 back in boy names or Wow was there a thing we go on and go oh wow you know 24:17.360 --> 24:23.800 this person did really good this week yeah George Ramos and I think he's 24:23.800 --> 24:28.000 probably the only one that I do remember and I know there were others and so I'm 24:28.000 --> 24:35.000 sorry I can't remember them but I remember him because he did really 24:35.000 --> 24:39.800 really good work and he was always whenever he would put things out there 24:39.800 --> 24:44.720 he would put up some sort of a text file or something that would thank me he was 24:44.720 --> 24:50.920 always giving me these kudos that I probably didn't deserve and he he always 24:50.920 --> 24:56.960 told everyone that he got he got the inspiration or he got started because of 24:56.960 --> 25:03.520 me and he was a terrific guy he was a very very talented and he was probably 25:03.520 --> 25:07.640 more talented than I was he probably deserved a better and a bigger name than 25:07.640 --> 25:13.360 I than I did but maybe because it was first maybe because I was female I don't 25:13.360 --> 25:20.560 know but he never did it was never quite as big but he was he was great he was 25:20.560 --> 25:24.640 terrific and and that's funny because until you just mentioned him I haven't 25:24.640 --> 25:30.080 thought of him in ten years I feel bad about that too so wherever he is I wish 25:30.080 --> 25:35.920 him well actually when I interviewed jet he said you know the old days you 25:35.920 --> 25:40.600 rather you know you either you're either in this one group where you were a guy 25:40.600 --> 25:50.360 like Ebony Eyes what really really so I don't know did you run it no I never ran 25:50.360 --> 25:53.800 into anybody that didn't know I was female actually 25:53.800 --> 26:06.600 yeah I mean did you did you run the cases where people were unhappy that you 26:06.600 --> 26:11.840 were female doing this stuff and getting it out no with the ANSI no now with the 26:11.840 --> 26:17.040 ANSI I think it's perfectly acceptable in society period for a female to be 26:17.040 --> 26:23.300 into something that's graphics and and artistic it's fine when we got into the 26:23.300 --> 26:32.160 BBS portion and it was I was a sys op of multiple systems when I began to take an 26:32.160 --> 26:37.920 administrative role in in the networking people had a problem with that they 26:37.920 --> 26:40.800 didn't want to have to listen to a woman they didn't want to have to have a woman 26:40.800 --> 26:44.840 tell them what rules were going to be followed or to lay them down or whatever 26:44.840 --> 26:49.840 it was a big problem then much bigger than I think it would be now and I even 26:49.840 --> 26:55.320 you know in real life I worked as a computer consultant at the time and for 26:55.320 --> 26:59.400 a while at the computer store and Radio Shack and people would actually come in 26:59.400 --> 27:06.960 come over to me and they would say is there a guy I could talk to and and my 27:06.960 --> 27:10.920 manager loved that because he would go and get a guy employee to talk to them 27:10.920 --> 27:13.880 and then every time they had a question the guy would turn to me and say Laura 27:13.880 --> 27:17.720 can you tell me because they wouldn't know the answers so that was always 27:17.720 --> 27:22.280 interesting yeah I ran into that a lot but never in the artistic side of it 27:22.280 --> 27:30.920 were you ever recruited to join a group actually I think I may have talked to 27:30.920 --> 27:37.240 Chris back then but I did talk to acid a few times but it just wasn't gonna be my 27:37.240 --> 27:42.880 thing I just I just wasn't interested in doing it I just wanted to do what I 27:42.880 --> 27:46.880 wanted to do just a little and then just kind of go live my life elsewhere and 27:46.880 --> 27:51.240 that that is what I did I became more interested in everything else that I 27:51.240 --> 27:55.960 could do with it rather than bigger and better and competition and that sort of 27:55.960 --> 28:00.560 thing just didn't do it for me you know and Ebony Eyes with a couple of skulls 28:00.560 --> 28:04.320 just wouldn't have worked either so I don't think it would have been a good 28:04.320 --> 28:31.360 fit but it was fun I mean that's one of the things about the ANSI groups is that 28:31.360 --> 28:39.280 there's this recruitment and like but members switch sides a lot yes and so I 28:39.280 --> 28:45.760 mean in Chris's case it's one guy and then underneath him it's like senior 28:45.760 --> 28:49.000 staff and he kind of takes care of yes it was a it was quite a flowchart I 28:49.000 --> 28:52.920 remember and I used it's more of a collective that there's like five 28:52.920 --> 29:00.360 people who are kind of senior at any given time and then you know they rotate 29:00.360 --> 29:04.680 quite heavily and he's a consistency and they're not and yet the two of them 29:04.680 --> 29:11.920 somehow continue to battle up to I think they pretty much tag out around 2000 29:11.920 --> 29:20.720 outside of me which is an aberrant example but did you have people trying 29:20.720 --> 29:28.920 to track you down or yes yes yes I have I have had people sometimes because of 29:28.920 --> 29:38.320 the ANSI and sometimes because of the bulletin boards I think more from a 29:38.320 --> 29:43.240 board I ran called third stage than anything else because that was the time 29:43.240 --> 29:49.680 when so much was going on with with the changes to the network and there was a 29:49.680 --> 29:53.680 lot of controversy going on at the time so I think that probably my name got to 29:53.680 --> 29:59.600 be somewhat bigger so yeah a few times people did about two years ago PBS 29:59.600 --> 30:04.360 contacted me and they were doing something and they wanted to talk to me 30:04.360 --> 30:10.360 about it and that didn't work out so I never did I somebody somebody came to me 30:10.360 --> 30:14.320 and said that they'd been trying to track me down and that George Ramos had 30:14.320 --> 30:18.280 told them who I was and where was that where they could find me and that was 30:18.280 --> 30:23.480 for an article and that never happened either so yeah so a few times but 30:23.480 --> 30:34.960 you're the first one that ever actually came out and talked to me the I appreciate 30:34.960 --> 30:41.400 getting the exclusive by luck but um you know with these I mean with these people 30:41.400 --> 30:45.200 who are just I mean they were so they were interested in you historically yeah 30:45.200 --> 30:52.560 I think so I think so I don't know since it never happened I'm not sure no I 30:52.560 --> 31:01.240 think so a couple of times I've run into people on the internet who have said is 31:01.240 --> 31:06.120 there any chance that you used to be and they would remember me either as Laura 31:06.120 --> 31:13.400 Bradley who I originally was when I was when I was ebony eyes before I got 31:13.400 --> 31:20.120 married and then I was Laura Ruffner divorced now again so there you go but 31:20.120 --> 31:27.800 I'm still Laura Ruffner and sometimes I would say sure and sometimes I would 31:27.800 --> 31:31.040 just kind of blow it off kind of depended on the person whether I wanted 31:31.040 --> 31:37.480 to open that big can of worms you know it can yeah yeah I think there's some 31:37.480 --> 31:44.280 very tracking of you somewhere on the groups like somehow at some point you 31:44.280 --> 31:50.880 use the word ebony eyes and Laura Ruffner in the same uh-huh and that was the point at 31:50.880 --> 31:57.000 which they knew that Ebony Eyes was Laura Ruffner oh okay yeah yeah well I 31:57.000 --> 32:04.120 actually remember I just started signing my artwork instead of EE LR and I yeah I 32:04.120 --> 32:08.080 kind of just retired the EE name but for the most part people wouldn't let me 32:08.080 --> 32:11.840 people would just continue to call me that and I even had friends who would 32:11.840 --> 32:17.640 call me on the phone years later and say EE that just sounds weird it sounds like 32:17.640 --> 32:29.240 a strange sound they're making but yeah I mean the example I give to people is 32:29.240 --> 32:41.320 Patrick Krupa who was the head of the Legion of Doom who leaves Legion of Doom this hacking group and then goes to Thailand gets addicted to opiates and then gets involved in like this whole like oh yeah group me 32:41.320 --> 32:45.600 right in there breaks me out breaks me out breaks out of that thing and then 32:45.600 --> 32:49.320 becomes like a big advocate for like stopping drug trafficking and then moves 32:49.320 --> 32:53.120 back and starts a bulletin board called mind box which is supposed to change 32:53.120 --> 32:58.200 everything in 93 and so on and then like 97 he got involved in something else and 32:58.200 --> 33:02.440 I had somebody mail me and that person said to me I need your help because I'm 33:02.440 --> 33:10.960 thinking Patrick Krupa is Lord Digital um but this can't be right because right 33:10.960 --> 33:16.480 now Patrick Krupa is 32 and that means that when he was Lord Digital he was 14 33:16.480 --> 33:22.080 mm-hmm that's impossible he could not possibly have been 14 you know had to 33:22.080 --> 33:26.160 be in this 20 so is there two people here I should be knowing about and you have a 33:26.160 --> 33:30.760 situation where you have this you have several distinct phases in your life 33:30.760 --> 33:38.400 yes that are almost like distant cousins in terms of what they call from you you 33:38.400 --> 33:47.280 know do you have a case where I mean when you look back at that phase of your 33:47.280 --> 33:53.040 life of being Ebony eyes I mean is it a case I mean some people might like 33:53.040 --> 34:00.000 Christian continues to exploit his brand mm-hmm he's more protective of it now 34:00.000 --> 34:06.840 and he doesn't uses it very gingerly bring it in a go okay I'm doing this you 34:06.840 --> 34:10.120 know usually highfalutin projects involving history and getting things down 34:10.120 --> 34:16.200 not just like a red band by these pop-tarts but did you ever have a I mean 34:16.200 --> 34:19.160 that's one of the ways you could have gone with it because you could have just 34:19.160 --> 34:23.920 become Ebony eyes productions and continued you know and signed it under 34:23.920 --> 34:28.400 things and continued to develop it and gone you know with 14 years of Ebony 34:28.400 --> 34:34.960 eyes you know I could have you know whatever you remember being you think 34:34.960 --> 34:41.800 you're able to describe your relationship with that persona wow sorry 34:41.800 --> 34:47.080 that's a heck of a question it was a long way around it yeah and not where I 34:47.080 --> 34:56.120 thought you were going so I never wanted to do that I never wanted to do that 34:56.120 --> 35:00.080 because it was drawing too much attention to myself and I already wasn't 35:00.080 --> 35:03.880 wanting to do that now 35:03.880 --> 35:08.360 strange thing since everything that I have done since one would think draws 35:08.360 --> 35:15.600 attention to myself because I continue to run a huge website now that has a 35:15.600 --> 35:21.360 huge following I published two magazines I speak in front of hundreds of people 35:21.360 --> 35:27.040 at conferences and summits speaking to Congress next week this is not a person 35:27.040 --> 35:34.400 who doesn't want to ever make waves or be seen but I like the idea of choosing 35:34.400 --> 35:41.560 how that is and being the architect of my own vision I guess and at that point 35:41.560 --> 35:47.120 I really felt that that had been taken away from me that people had made up 35:47.120 --> 35:51.800 their own minds about who that was it didn't have my real name attached to it 35:51.800 --> 35:59.560 and it became larger than life I think at that point Ebony Eyes became much 35:59.560 --> 36:08.320 more important than Laura Ruffner and I guess I wanted Laura back yeah so no 36:08.320 --> 36:13.920 that never I never wanted to do that it's in my personality to do that but it 36:13.920 --> 36:34.160 wasn't it wasn't right for me then we have a lot of dogs around here I don't 36:34.160 --> 36:47.400 hear it anymore yes we have the highway right there and then we have these 36:47.400 --> 36:51.040 neighbors have two dogs and these neighbors have two dogs and when this 36:51.040 --> 36:54.960 when one over here barks especially the little one this one over here we'll get 36:54.960 --> 37:00.520 started which gets his little friend started and it just goes on and on yes 37:00.520 --> 37:10.480 they are dominoes with fur I like that in terms of your artwork is Ebony Eyes 37:10.480 --> 37:14.800 sometimes when you do stuff as an artist across whatever you do it across a 37:14.800 --> 37:20.280 number of years mm-hmm there'll be something you do some project something 37:20.280 --> 37:25.680 which is it stands apart from the others you know the guy who did all the yes 37:25.680 --> 37:32.960 covers one day designed this I guess we don't have a house designed a house in 37:32.960 --> 37:37.200 the style of his paintings and they built it but still stands and so on it 37:37.200 --> 37:40.520 was completely separate different rules that different everything but he did it 37:40.520 --> 37:44.040 and then he goes back to what he's doing was there anything that you did where 37:44.040 --> 37:48.240 you know you were doing stuff as Ebony Eyes you know art art art art and then 37:48.240 --> 37:52.040 you did something either within ANSI or something that was like just a step 37:52.040 --> 37:56.880 apart or a step above or something that you were like you know like stretching 37:56.880 --> 38:08.280 the muscles well that there's there's two answers to that one is that there 38:08.280 --> 38:17.720 came a point in 90 I believe when I moved away from what was just adorable 38:17.720 --> 38:25.040 cute stuff to things that I thought were more expressive things that were more 38:25.040 --> 38:31.000 experimental things that were just blending of colors it's interesting that 38:31.000 --> 38:35.600 you mentioned houses because I've worked on things that were very architectural 38:35.600 --> 38:43.640 to look at and it was more for me people didn't even recognize it is Ebony Eyes 38:43.640 --> 38:49.120 type work because it was just not my style or what had been my style and and 38:49.120 --> 38:54.320 and so sometimes you just do work that's for yourself and I think that was one of 38:54.320 --> 38:58.080 those cases when I did that and that there was quite a lot of that for a 38:58.080 --> 39:04.080 period of time a lot of that is what's missing and then there was also the 39:04.080 --> 39:12.160 point at which instead of just doing screens as art I was doing screens that 39:12.160 --> 39:17.840 were functional art that were more than just a welcome screen to a BBS but were 39:17.840 --> 39:22.680 various informational screens that I was doing for other people as well as for 39:22.680 --> 39:27.520 myself and they were the beginnings of what later became software interfaces 39:27.520 --> 39:33.360 and so that was really a stand standalone step apart kind of thing and 39:33.360 --> 39:38.640 both of those things I really enjoyed much more than what I had fallen into 39:38.640 --> 39:43.520 people began requesting things of me they would send in requests can you do a 39:43.520 --> 39:49.000 picture of this this this this and and it was whatever they requested was 39:49.000 --> 39:53.720 pretty much what they had always seen for me the older stuff and I wasn't 39:53.720 --> 39:59.440 really enjoying doing it I was doing it for other people kind of like I think a 39:59.440 --> 40:02.920 singer that wants to move off in another direction but their requests are always 40:02.920 --> 40:06.960 going to be back in line with what the public is used to and that was what was 40:06.960 --> 40:10.560 happening then but I really enjoyed the other stuff more the stuff toward the 40:10.560 --> 40:12.680 end 40:21.480 --> 40:29.600 you are aware of what's called the BS yeah where we would write our own mods 40:29.600 --> 40:40.400 so she mean no no again with the young boys they give they give something a 40:40.400 --> 40:44.840 name and it's a representation of something but it's sometimes uses the 40:44.840 --> 40:50.400 same words will define it for me it's where sometimes these anti groups would 40:50.400 --> 40:55.560 create kind of pre-made templates skins for a BBS and so they would say well 40:55.560 --> 41:00.200 here's one with like dripping stalactites and you get an opening 41:00.200 --> 41:06.560 screen a file screen correct screen right I actually did some of those okay 41:06.560 --> 41:11.840 right all purpose yeah and they would all follow a theme but they were very 41:11.840 --> 41:18.800 different from what they were doing did you have any thoughts on when they 41:18.800 --> 41:21.080 started doing that because there's a case where they're trying to move away 41:21.080 --> 41:25.640 from just I was able to draw Thor to here's something you should use every 41:25.640 --> 41:32.560 day on your BBS no I'm not sure I would think that it was probably a couple of 41:32.560 --> 41:37.680 years after I was doing that yeah I think that's when I started seeing it but 41:37.680 --> 41:43.440 I'm not sure well it's pretty natural to look at a lot of the advances being made 41:43.440 --> 41:48.880 in that scene and just go great you know suddenly the stuff I left there when I 41:48.880 --> 41:54.000 was there four years ago you know so on I mean did you ever feel that you weren't 41:54.000 --> 42:01.920 given credit by these new groups no no really I know it kind of seems like I 42:01.920 --> 42:05.840 should but I just think that what they did was just so different and it was 42:05.840 --> 42:11.440 all a natural progression anyway if it wasn't something that everybody was 42:11.440 --> 42:15.400 going to do it was going to happen it wasn't something that I had pioneered I 42:15.400 --> 42:19.480 didn't create something I didn't I didn't invent the wheel and so I can't 42:19.480 --> 42:37.800 take credit for the wheel when other people you know use it to I ran into ones 42:37.800 --> 42:41.720 that I thought would never end but I'm sure they weren't thousand line I'm sure 42:41.720 --> 42:48.160 that you know as opposed to the usual 80 or something they were maybe four or five 42:48.160 --> 42:52.520 times that which amazed me because it was like you were watching this thing 42:52.520 --> 42:57.240 scrolling and scrolling and scrolling and I kept wondering if you can't 42:57.240 --> 43:03.920 possibly even remember how it started out where's the art in that so it wasn't 43:03.920 --> 43:08.480 my thing but I remember it one of the things that really strikes we were 43:08.480 --> 43:13.080 discussing at the conference we just gave where we've mentioned we were we 43:13.080 --> 43:23.120 were putting up thumbnail things of some of these antsies and they look great 43:23.120 --> 43:28.640 right but this is they never saw it the kids never saw it that's the point 43:28.640 --> 43:32.920 that's my point you couldn't see it yeah 43:32.920 --> 43:40.800 little box right it turns out some of them didn't quite have their ratios 43:40.800 --> 43:45.240 working yeah no surprise and some of them really did yeah it's like working 43:45.240 --> 44:05.840 blind as is for the hormone driven aspects of the scene they do drive 44:15.240 --> 44:21.800 yeah I can see how that would definitely be a guy thing because the guys were you 44:21.800 --> 44:26.920 know judged by the size of their ANSI screens I guess it's kind of funny yeah 44:26.920 --> 44:33.040 that's but I actually remember that when you had to do more lines than you could 44:33.040 --> 44:39.160 possibly view we would I would split them up and look at them on multiple 44:39.160 --> 44:44.160 monitors it was the only way to do it to really see how they would come together 44:44.160 --> 44:49.480 because it isn't like you had you know this high-class HP color laser jet that 44:49.480 --> 44:54.120 you could pop them to and as well let's just look at it that way your options 44:54.120 --> 44:57.400 were really limited it was the whole stone knives and bearskins that's what 44:57.400 --> 45:07.620 you were doing so yeah no I used I started with ANSI paint moved to the 45:07.620 --> 45:18.280 draw I think that like everybody was using and that was that yeah I sure did 45:18.280 --> 45:22.120 yeah I always did things the old-fashioned way and to this day 45:22.120 --> 45:27.840 whenever I move a file I'm dropping to DOS to do it I'm still writing a batch 45:27.840 --> 45:35.440 file and doing X copy and yeah I still write all my own HTML code in notepad 45:35.440 --> 45:41.880 well I mean you think that's a function of having come up yeah I do I do and I 45:41.880 --> 45:46.920 and I consider that a strength because I don't rely on I don't rely on software 45:46.920 --> 45:51.800 I don't rely on things having to be done for me because I always had to do things 45:51.800 --> 45:56.000 the old-fashioned way so I still do and I and I think there's still some power 45:56.000 --> 45:59.960 in that and there's a there's a level of creativity that you don't get if you're 45:59.960 --> 46:04.280 relying on software to do everything for you and you get to keep control and 46:04.280 --> 46:07.320 that's really the cool thing 46:26.920 --> 46:32.880 yeah I used to kind of do stuff like that and and I expect that I probably 46:32.880 --> 46:38.440 always will I'm still writing my own JavaScript code and everything from from 46:38.440 --> 46:41.640 scratch works better 46:41.640 --> 46:48.280 recently told me tracer tracer of acid told me about you know he'd give stuff 46:48.280 --> 46:54.560 to Chris and Chris would knew the ANSI codes by heart so you would go in and 46:54.560 --> 47:03.320 modify them so they were cleaner clean code that matters I'm sorry still that 47:03.320 --> 47:15.280 way because there was something that like some people would depend heavily on 47:15.280 --> 47:21.640 right correct I was one of those people yep 47:21.640 --> 47:34.000 you know I haven't thought of this stuff in years I said yeah yeah yeah it does 47:34.000 --> 47:56.680 see something moving underneath it I remember those oh sometimes three in a 47:56.680 --> 48:02.320 day yeah I think there might have even been more than that from time to time 48:02.320 --> 48:06.840 but there was always a whole batch every week for the longest time which is why 48:06.840 --> 48:11.680 there's hundreds of them and I don't know where they all are there's a there 48:11.680 --> 48:16.400 was a cache of them that have made the rounds to the point where you can find 48:16.400 --> 48:21.120 those that grouping everywhere and it's really hard to try and track down the 48:21.120 --> 48:26.520 others most of them I'll probably never ever find but a tremendous amount of 48:26.520 --> 48:32.080 them I would sometimes knock out two or three of them in an evening it was 48:32.080 --> 48:39.000 just fun it was it was this creative outlet and I just love doing it 48:39.000 --> 49:02.040 Isaac Asimov reached a point with one of his he was writing like you wrote and then he had something where he was sitting with an editor and the other just said you know you've done some of these stories at this point but you could just write one sit down and write one and he goes she's like let's you know for some reason it got down to him sitting in his typewriter and he bangs it out in three hours without going back starts out at the beginning goes a little bit of 49:02.040 --> 49:18.600 the end to end she reads it once she's like yep just like I thought you could buys it and he pretty much starts doing that like a lot of Asimov's books he literally would just start on the first word right all the way through with no second draft and when it ends um do you 49:18.600 --> 49:24.040 remember I mean there must be a time when you're at the top of your game when 49:24.040 --> 49:32.040 it's just something you do you know sit down you're like seagull by beach do you 49:32.040 --> 49:39.680 remember any events or times you did that or where you were like like the process 49:39.680 --> 49:48.360 how the process got to be yeah I guess I do I hadn't really thought too much about 49:48.360 --> 49:52.800 that I think that when I started I used to start with a central design in the 49:52.800 --> 49:57.520 middle and then work out the ends and go back and forth and back and forth I got 49:57.520 --> 50:01.760 to a point where I didn't ever do that and I did just like you you just said I 50:01.760 --> 50:05.400 would start in the upper left hand corner and I would end in the bottom 50:05.400 --> 50:11.360 right hand corner I had I had an idea of exactly what I wanted and I never went 50:11.360 --> 50:15.600 back to another line I would go back a few spaces but I never went back to 50:15.600 --> 50:19.880 another line ever unless I was going back to add a signature pull something 50:19.880 --> 50:24.120 out that a signature or something like that but no then it didn't I didn't do 50:24.120 --> 50:30.560 that anymore I got I had the the picture down and then I would just do it it 50:30.560 --> 50:37.280 wasn't that hard it was kind of like you could just close your eyes and do it it 50:37.280 --> 50:41.600 was a translation kind of thing really it's like playing the piano you can 50:41.600 --> 50:44.920 eventually just close your eyes and do it you don't need to watch yourself do it 50:44.920 --> 50:52.440 and check out the keys you just do it so yeah it was like that is there ever a 50:52.440 --> 51:00.760 case that you're that you're ever explaining to somebody and find yourself 51:00.760 --> 51:07.360 at a loss trying to explain the medium I haven't tried to explain it to anyone in 51:07.360 --> 51:16.260 a very long time until today when I tried to explain it to Neil and my 51:16.260 --> 51:24.880 partner and what I do now I don't think he got it but maybe I don't know he did 51:24.880 --> 51:31.120 seem to know what ants he was it's been a long time since I tried to describe it 51:31.120 --> 51:35.580 to anyone else and I think that somebody that doesn't have it wasn't around at 51:35.580 --> 51:43.440 all then it doesn't get any of it I don't think they're gonna get it yeah yeah 51:43.440 --> 51:48.920 I do I think that I think it had tremendous merit because of the of the 51:48.920 --> 51:54.560 creativity of forced it's like you were talking about earlier when you have to 51:54.560 --> 52:00.680 create something without the crutch without all the you know the bells and 52:00.680 --> 52:04.040 whistles that we all have now not that I don't work with those bells and whistles 52:04.040 --> 52:11.680 every day but there's there's something kind of 52:12.040 --> 52:21.040 archaic but special about it because it was a beginning it's historical it's 52:21.040 --> 52:25.160 there's a beauty in it there's a simplicity in it there's there was a 52:25.160 --> 52:40.680 less is more kind of a feeling so yeah I think it's kind of a shame I'm done 52:40.680 --> 52:46.280 whenever you want to I can't think of anything else I would say really but you 52:46.280 --> 52:52.040 keep reminding me of things one of the things that really comes out when you 52:52.040 --> 52:56.920 really start to explore like an old subject like you know if you were a kid 52:56.920 --> 53:00.160 you know back when you were a kid you were in Girl Scouts you know you might 53:00.160 --> 53:02.680 say you might sort of talk about it and once you're giving back those names 53:02.680 --> 53:08.960 you're like so she stayed with us all the time and that's something you 53:08.960 --> 53:12.920 remember in my stories and selling cookies and it just goes like that well 53:12.920 --> 53:17.840 BBS is represents four years of one's life right there's a lot of stories in 53:17.840 --> 53:23.080 there right oh they BBS is represent more than four years of my life so yeah 53:23.080 --> 53:29.160 a lot a lot and they were the precursor to where I am now they the art is the 53:29.160 --> 53:35.520 precursor to what I'm doing now artistically until about a year ago I 53:35.520 --> 53:42.200 was I was doing corporate graphic design and now I still do a bit of it but 53:42.200 --> 53:46.880 because I've gotten so into the whole low carb movement and and what I've done 53:46.880 --> 53:50.680 with that I've kind of meshed them all because I also used to write I wrote 53:50.680 --> 53:56.240 from right out of high school so so I do some writing and some research and some 53:56.240 --> 54:02.680 some some speaking but also it's all meshed in with the graphic design which 54:02.680 --> 54:10.280 is how I can do magazines and things like that so I owe my my current life to 54:10.280 --> 54:15.440 that portion of my life I learned what I needed to know about computers I had to 54:15.440 --> 54:20.840 learn to write my own modifications to the BBS code for both WW IV and and 54:20.840 --> 54:25.200 Wildcat so I had to learn some programming or I wouldn't have learned 54:25.200 --> 54:33.480 to program the the ANSI art took me to every other kind of art I've ever done 54:33.480 --> 54:38.880 all the way to where I am now it's all been a progression and I'm very grateful 54:38.880 --> 54:43.880 to all of it because everything I have is self-taught I mean I'm trained as a 54:43.880 --> 54:51.040 nurse I'm trained in the medical field I have no training in in anything where 54:51.040 --> 54:56.240 computers are concerned but they have been my life's work 54:56.240 --> 55:03.000 also you mean that you've been doing you have what's called a street degree in 55:03.000 --> 55:10.280 art and so did you ever have a case say as Ebony Eyes or around that area when 55:10.280 --> 55:18.120 you were asked to like give artistic consultancy not really in that era I 55:18.120 --> 55:23.920 wouldn't say it was more people actually just hiring me to do the job then then 55:23.920 --> 55:32.640 to to teach that came later but I was already toward the end of the the ANSI 55:32.640 --> 55:36.920 era and definitely away from the Ebony Eyes thing I think it is a natural 55:36.920 --> 55:44.520 progression people begin to come to you to to teach them and they they always 55:44.520 --> 55:48.440 assume that you have some kind of formal training they always assume that they're 55:48.440 --> 55:52.440 always very surprised to learn that you doubt that's the case now with web 55:52.440 --> 55:56.800 design because there's all these schools in the afternoon when they're home 55:56.800 --> 56:00.480 watching television and not working that tell them that they can you know call 56:00.480 --> 56:04.160 this number and get this degree for to become this high-paid web designer 56:04.160 --> 56:11.400 there's a billion web designers and good luck with that but in reality it's one of 56:11.400 --> 56:14.960 those things you either have or you don't I think those are just gifts and 56:14.960 --> 56:21.520 and you can take them in and use them and and while I appreciate what I did at 56:21.520 --> 56:26.960 the time where it took me the fulfillment that I got I never fool 56:26.960 --> 56:31.280 myself into thinking that I began to have the gift that a lot of the kids did 56:31.280 --> 56:37.160 later and the and and the boys from acid and stuff I just you know I did what I 56:37.160 --> 57:06.480 did were there any shout outs to have any eyes in the art packs no no I wouldn't 57:06.480 --> 57:20.480 oh well that's cool I'm all touched it finds its foundations in pop culture and 57:20.480 --> 57:27.240 rap but there's this need to the part of the way that you show that not only are 57:27.240 --> 57:31.000 you good at what you do but you have respect for those before you yeah that's 57:31.000 --> 57:37.600 cool you kind of just give them their props yeah yeah that's cool I did not 57:37.600 --> 57:41.320 know that that's that's nice 57:44.320 --> 57:50.760 you know because one of the things that really shocks people is to find out how 57:50.760 --> 57:55.520 far back the medium goes right and that problems that they think are their new 57:55.520 --> 58:00.800 problems in the world turn out to have been problems going years and years back 58:00.800 --> 58:05.160 I mean I talked to the ready artists the one from the 60s and 70s who started 58:05.160 --> 58:09.760 doing all those pinups and asking right and they the way that one guy used to do 58:09.760 --> 58:13.360 it was used to load the Playboy centerfold into the printer and look at 58:13.360 --> 58:19.440 what was under the square and then go what's the closest thing to that yes X W 58:19.440 --> 58:26.400 right do that and type over it yeah well don't think I didn't study some of that 58:26.400 --> 58:30.440 when I first started to the ASCII art was definitely the precursor to the 58:30.440 --> 58:35.440 ANSI art and I I that's where I got the bug in the first place was looking at 58:35.440 --> 58:38.800 that and what could be done and hey we have this now we can do we can do color 58:38.800 --> 58:47.360 and you know 16 of them but still we can do color so yeah I mean you do have to 58:47.360 --> 58:53.080 acknowledge where you came from and everybody steps from someone else it all 58:53.080 --> 59:18.600 comes from some place let's close up shop I think so 59:23.080 --> 59:25.180 you